Out From Under the Umbrella

playing in the rain

Barbarianism, Alive and Ready to War

54 Comments

violenceI won’t link to his website here.  Just a quick Google search of the name and you’ll find it if you want to see it. I just went there to see if this quote was accurately attributed. It is.

Now, I’m not a militant-feminist.  I simply want equality, having no desire to push anyone else down – male, female, black, white – makes no difference to me.  Poking around over there gave me a case of the hives and made me afraid.  It made me afraid that there really are white men[any men] in America – or anywhere, for that matter – with this mentality.  The only reason I even know about it is because someone I’m friends with on Facebook posted the meme.  Surely this was some kind of joke, I thought.

This call to tribalism and male dominance is appalling.  I would think that even you men out there would agree with that.  Why would anyone want to back up?  I wouldn’t have thought that anyone in the 21st century would be advocating this.  If violence is the gold standard, sell all your gold.

Why do [some] white men feel as if anyone seeking equality is a threat?  Those of us not white and muscle-bound have to do that through the ballot box and legislation.  We don’t go around punching people in the face(or refraining from it only because we’d be thrown in jail) to get our way.  This doesn’t seem much like masculinity to me.  It seems more like five-year-olds in a sand-box.  Or a two-year-old throwing a trantrum to get his way; childish and archaic.

Is this what survival of the fittest is about?  If a man can dominate, if he can hold you down, if he’s the leader of the pack he’s king.  That someone of the male persuasion would think this way or, more crucially, behave this way says to me he’s no man at all.

Human ethics dictate that we protect those weaker than ourselves; not seek to destroy them.  This is barbarianism, plain and simple.  Some how I think men with this mentality would take that as a compliment, though.

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54 thoughts on “Barbarianism, Alive and Ready to War

  1. Actually, Ruth, I have read this ‘battle cry’ nonsense on other Blogs (from some fundagelicals). I think that the uber-patriarchal denominations use it as a rallying cry; a desperate and primitive posturing behaviour of those who refuse to acknowledge that society has evolved. It’s pathetic.

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    • The very odd thing is, while Mr. D. is apparently uber-conservative, he also refers to himself as androphilic. There was nothing I read that was overtly nor covertly associated with religion. It was all “let’s get back to our cave-man roots”. I’m paraphrasing, of course.

      He rejects the label of gay because it comes with baggage; flamers, effeminate, soft. He encourages men who are attracted to other men to associate with mostly straight men[an understanding from my brief reading there] so that they can retain/gain their traditional masculinity. He is a bit repulsed, from what I can tell, by feminism.

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  2. I see people like this from a neurological POV — why are you surprised, right? But I’ve listened to many hours of lectures regarding emotional intelligence, e.g., “The Neurobiology of Emotions” by Dr. Phillippe Goldin, which can be found on YouTube, as well as research on how the right amygdala can increase in gray matter volume — light up light a Christmas tree when people encounter the “Other”. These are generally people who are very tribal and/or did not bond to a primary caregiver.

    You nailed it when you mentioned tribalism and barbarianism. Research shows that they are a threat to the survival of our species, and Dr. Goldin and other professionals are traveling the world to bring awareness about the urgency of teaching emotional intelligence.

    This quote also reminded me of an excellent article by Dr. Robert Sapolsky — Peace Among Primates (link below). Whoever wrote this quote shows that he’s no different than the aggressive alpha male Forest Troop baboons that Dr. Sapolsky studied for 20 plus years while living among them. If you do read the article, take special note of the section “Left behind”. The troop had a dramatic social/behavioral changes when these aggressive baboons met their fate after eating tainted meat.

    The results were that Forest Troop was left with males who were less aggressive, and this also resulted in much less violence against the females. The once highly stratified, male-dominated troop turned into what Dr. Sapolsky coined “a baboon utopia”. Another excellent section of the article is Dr. Susan Fiske’s research on the right amygdala (aggression, fear — fight or flight). It’s under the section “Natural Born Killers?”

    http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/peace_among_primates

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    • Not surprised at all. About the neuroscience thing. 😀

      I skimmed that article; I’ll have to go back and read it in detail when I have a chance. I definitely think this “group think” small sub-group mind-set breeds conformity. My Atheist Life has a very good point that socialization – travel, cultural education, etc.. – is the answer to this.

      We all fear the unknown. Hence, lack of education about various cultures breeds fear of the “other”.

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  3. Correction: I meant to write “The Neuroscience of Emotions”.

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  4. It’s probably just evidence of a unfortunate childhood, we should feel sorry for them, not concerned about them. Well, maybe concerned about them …

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  5. What I find funny about these guys is that they’re typically gutless wimps. Take the raving idiot (child molester) Ted Nugent. For all his “talk” he dodged the draft to go to Vietnam. These guys talk to the talk, but i wouldn’t want them in any foxhole i was in.

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    • Ugh! You said Ted Nugent’s name on my blog.

      My sister and brother-in-law really like him. I think he’s a nutjob. :rollseyes:

      I’ve read around on this fellow’s website a bit. Mostly because of the shock that someone actually thinks this way. It’s like a trainwreck. You know you should look away, but you can’t. I didn’t link intentionally because I didn’t want to promote him.

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  6. I’ve always thought, after thousands of years of moving humanity away from being “nasty, brutish, and short,” men who want to look back to such times for masculine ideals lack aspiration and creativity. They extol the virtues of destruction as a path to renewal, but they’re nothing more than petulant children trying to kick over other people’s sand castles.

    Also, proving you’re a man by writing a book declaring your values are the values of “real men” is begging the question.

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    • Like I said in my post, I’m really not some kind of feminazi. I’m not even a girly girl. Prima dona is not an adjective that has ever been used to describe me. In fact, I would probably fit his description of a “Manly Woman of Honor”:

      “A true manly woman of honor—a mannish woman whom I could truly respect and admire—would have to conduct herself in a way that is complementary to masculinity, not corrosive or hostile to it. Here are a few guidelines I propose to distinguish a manly woman of honor from a female enemy of men.

      -A Manly Woman of Honor acknowledges that she is not a man, but a rare woman who prefers manly pursuits and ideals to womanly one.
      – A Manly Woman of Honor does not believe she is better than men at being a man, though she may well prove herself to be better than some men at doing some things men do.
      -A Manly Woman of Honor does not want to change men; she admires them and prefers their codes and ideals to the codes and ideals preferred by women.
      -A Manly Woman of Honor does not seek special accommodations or handicaps on account of her sex; she acknowledges that she is a woman playing a man’s game and wants to play it by the exact same rules. If she does well, good for her!
      -A Manly Woman of Honor does not want to be regarded as a man; she wants to earn the respect of men and be regarded as a woman of honor.
      -The Manly Woman of Honor does not need to redefine intelligence to appear smart, she doesn’t have to redefine strength to be strong and she doesn’t ask men for special favors. In fact, her sense of honor would make this impossible.
      -Like men, a Manly Woman of Honor asks for help only when she truly needs it—after giving her best on her own.”

      Gag! I am pretty much all of that, but I’m not condemning of women who are not. As if we should all be the same, and as if it is somehow more honorable for a woman to desire to be like a man, knowing all the while she can’t be, is ridiculous.

      The reason I am like that probably has a lot to do with my genetic make-up, but moreover, it is because this is a white man’s world. A woman who wants to be successful has to develop this attitude.

      I’m not condemning men when I say that. It’s just the way that it is. Until it isn’t. I

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      • Ruth, what I find interesting with this guy’s assertions and ideals is that he’s using his gender/sex (masculinity) as the highest standard — the measuring stick of the ultimate human. He also fails to take into account social conditioning and stereotypes (which he perpetuates) that created gender differences in the first place. He’s selling hypermasculinity and contributing to the dumbing down of societies and division between the sexes.

        Another point is that based on what I’ve read regarding his perspective, he’s primarily functioning from his midbrain and hindbrain, rather than his forebrain which is indicative of higher intelligence — analytical and emotional intelligence. His critical thinking ‘skills’ are laughable. I see no evidence that his precortex is very active, the area of higher executive functioning — complex thinking and regulation of emotions.

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      • Correction: I meant to write prefrontal cortex

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    • I meant to attribute the above quote to him. It was in an article he wrote.

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  7. You do remember that we, as a species, used to live in trees, right? Well some tree dwellers use negotiation to solve problems, others use violence and might. The very same mammalian brain these varied creatures in the trees use is the one we inherited. Some of us will use ‘might makes right’ or ‘I’m right at any cost’ or ‘I am right till you kill me’ or any number of superiority ploys. Most of them stem from insecurities. Those that have the ability and the will to use deadly force generally don’t. Those that don’t have either the ability or the will to use it talk about it a great deal. That’s generalizing but fairly accurate. Fear drives a fear mongering response.

    Whoa, think about that a bit harder. I said fear mongering is driven by fear. How many fear mongers do you know on the various sides of equality arguments? Political arguments? …. hmmm

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    • “Whoa, think about that a bit harder. I said fear mongering is driven by fear. How many fear mongers do you know on the various sides of equality arguments? Political arguments?

      Quite astute.

      “greater conservatism was associated with increased volume of the right amygdala.”

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3092984/

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      • Nice link, thank you. I had read about this before but only as silly mention with other ideas. This makes complete sense, at least to me. Brain structure is roughly genetic and thus … viola … bigotry runs in the family! so to speak. With the break down of geographic isolation of homo sapiens, it is difficult to know where there will be a likely grouping of this genetic function, which only confuses things.

        When I hear about things like this I always wonder if the black plague made us better or worse as a species. Genetically sensitive plagues would have that ability as well as the success of certain men. I’ve read that 1 in 200 Asian men are descendents of Genghis Khan. These things would have a tremendous impact on current politics and fear mongering, or should. I’m still waiting for the research…. ‘)

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        • “Brain structure is roughly genetic and thus … viola … bigotry runs in the family! so to speak. With the break down of geographic isolation of homo sapiens, it is difficult to know where there will be a likely grouping of this genetic function, which only confuses things.”

          After reading primate studies, and especially what happened with the Forest Troop baboons, I agree with Robert Sapolsky, that the actions of genes is completely intertwined with the environment in which they function.

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          • That makes it even more difficult. I have changed from the conservative mode to the more liberal mode over the course of my life and I can still see the ‘sanity’ of that way of thinking even though I rarely agree with it.

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          • “I have changed from the conservative mode to the more liberal mode”

            I’m sure it goes without saying that our brains are plastic. Based on the fMRI amygdala studies done by Susan Fiske and other neurscientists, as well as studies from primatologist, Irven DeVore, Saposlky further states:

            “Humans may be hard-wired to get edgy around the Other, but our views on who falls into that category are decidedly malleable.”

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          • I do agree with that. It is why experiencing the world tends to ‘liberalize’ us. That in turn explains why some parts of the US are staunchly conservative. That in turn means that education is always the answer. 😉

            Nice discussion. I like the way that turned out.

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          • Well said.

            Been up since 5:30AM and it’s after mid-night here, so I’m off to bed.

            Enjoyed the discussion.

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          • I enjoyed it as well. Thanks.

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          • “I do agree with that. It is why experiencing the world tends to ‘liberalize’ us. That in turn explains why some parts of the US are staunchly conservative.”

            Interesting you should say that. Here’s a quote from an interview he did. He’s apparently kind of a ‘big deal’.

            In your recent speech “Becoming the New Barbarians” you talk about forming small close-knit communities of people working together to become less dependent on the State and more dependent on each other. That’s what also I have had in mind. In many European cities immigrants are forming their own enclaves, so why shouldn’t white Europeans do the same? Could that be some kind of positive solution?

            Yes, absolutely. Become insular, interdependent and interconnected. Become more local and less global. Fade mass culture out of your lives and focus on developing subcultures unique to your group.

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    • Fear mongering is most assuredly driven by fear. We all want to circle the wagons and drum up support for ourselves against whatever it is we fear, leading to extremes in most any arena; race, politics, religion.

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  8. Ruth, I looked this Donovan character up and read through some of his ‘shite’. Wow! Poor guy is going through a nasty quest for self, eh? I think he just, plainly, hates himself. Too bad he feels he has to be so disparaging of others in the process. My take on it, anyway.

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  9. Wow, Ruth! I’ll be honest, I’ve been looking at this post for a few days now. Time and emotion hasn’t allowed for me to respond. I can fully relate to this guy. I’ve followed movements in Christendom that supported this mentality: Word of Faith, The Call and Boiler Rooms in the UK. I actually remember it going as far back as attending Charismatic Churches in my pre-teens in the early 80s. We would sing songs like “Blow the Trumpet into Zion”. I don’t know how many sermons and songs I heard over a span of decades about how I as a Christian would “Take This City” or about how the “violent take it by force”. I’ve read and heard more than I should about slaying evil giants in the land or beating plowshares into swords. While at Christ For The Nations in the early 1990s and the Brownsville Revival in the late 1990s and early 2000s, I gathered with hundreds of others in praying fervently and mightily for Christian reform in government and schools. I myself have led lines of people with a banner or flag in my hand, marching around Church sanctuaries and even city blocks and governmental buildings.

    I’ve spent the last two years trying to forget all of these things that have screwed with my emotions and reasoning. This violent attitude you make mention of encourages others to serve the indignant and submit to their methodology. It’s not healing, intelligent or soothing, it builds division, war and encourages superiority among its leaders. I think it’s why I am very much against war now and why I am reluctant to comply with any minister, politician or media source that even suggests fighting to resolve anything. Standing up? Yes, certainly! Actual battling? No!

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    • I very well remember the whole ‘battle’ theme within fundamentalism. Though I will say that most of the battle that was waged was figurative, not literal. I’m not sure how much of what he says is mere hyperbole and how much is truly how he sees the world and very much literal. The themes do run very similar though he doesn’t seem to be in any sense religious. He’s just very “white man must rule”. His “Me Tarzan” attitude is very apparent. I think he might take it as a compliment to be called a neanderthal.

      I have to say that waging battle and drawing battle lines always seemed very…wrong to me. That didn’t seem to play into the ministry of Christ in the least. I never thought he came to set up an earthly kingdom and was taught that that was what the Jews had gotten so wrong.

      I can’t imagine what that must have been like heading up lines of Christians “marching as to war”. Were these prayer walks? Were they boycotts? Or protests?

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      • Hey Ruth, these were all various things. Sometimes the “spirit” would move me and or us to walk around the inside or even outside of a Church, city block or town hall or even the state capital (Austin, Honolulu, etc). Other times they were planned events, such as United in Prayer in Hawai’i. I was involved with some prayer meetings there at the state capital, as well at a couple of public school buildings off and on from 2004 to 2006.

        I vividly remember a march my Mardi Gras outreach team (from CFNI) had down Bourbon Street in 1991. We partnered with Soldiers for Jesus and I believe another Church ministry or two. There were hundreds of us altogether and we locked arms four people across right in the middle of the street as we literally forged our way through the French Quarter. There were a few people with drums and we sung in rounds the Victory March. You know “Hail Jesus your my king. Your life brings me to sing. I will praise you all my days. You’re perfect in all your ways.” But then it’s more confrontational. “Hail, hail, Lion of Judah, how powerful you are!……Glory, glory to the Lamb, you will take us into the land. We will conquer in your name and proclaim that Jesus reins. Hail, hail, Lion of Judah, how powerful you are!”

        I won’t even get into the prayer meetings, evangelical sessions or marches I was apart of that had someone blow the shofar. Again, another military tactic.

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        • Wow, I’ve seen some of these types of marches on video. The only ‘walk’ I’ve participated in was a prayer walk around our schools. It was in no way militaristic.

          I can’t imagine what this type of thing does to a person’s psyche, just knowing what the figurative type of ‘war’ did to my own. *hugs*

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  10. Thought you might find this interesting. White supremacists put racists notes inside easter eggs for children to find.

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/21/virginia-white-supremacists-sneak-easter-eggs-filled-with-racist-notes-into-kids-celebration/

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  11. It’s frustrating to have see time and time again tribalism being equated with primitive, backwards thinking. Humans are naturally tribal animals – we love to be around other humans and function best with a solid network of people around us.

    What Jack Donovan advocates is, only in a bare bones simplistic way, tribalism. He is just one of the many men threatened by the recent surge of feminism, which to be honest has done a lot to shame men for simply being men. No, not all feminists are oppressive – just like not all men are insecure, “tough guise” douchecanoes like Donovan.

    Jack doesn’t want a tribe. He wants a He-man Woman Haters Club with a bunch of other like-minded 5 year olds.

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    • Thanks for stopping by and commenting.

      Exactly! I have no problem with tribalism. We all want to have a tribe. I’ve written about it here on my blog a few times. When I lost my religion I lost my tribe. So I’ve been in search of a new one. Tribalism is not the problem unless it’s conflated with Barbarianism that I have a problem. Having a tribe doesn’t mean one has to be sheltered from the rest of the world and the rest of the world isn’t the enemy of one’s tribe.

      Now, I don’t agree with shaming men just for being men, but women have had to fight like hell to get any measure of equality. Sometimes that looks like man-shaming. I know a few men who, anytime they begin to lose a foothold on their male privilege, begin to whine and moan about how white men get no respect and feel ‘held down’. And that’s just bs. You don’t get a special privilege just because you have outdoor plumbing and happen to be white.

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      • Hell yeah, women have had to fight hard and we’re going to have to keep fighting for a good while longer – which is why it frustrates me to see some so-called “feminists” act in a way that’s the same as patriarchy, believing matriarchy and turning the tables on men is the end goal. Thank goodness this isn’t a majority, but they are often the loudest, so feminism as a whole has become easy to misrepresent.

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        • Well, isn’t that really the problem with a lot of these issues, whether it be women’s rights, religion, race, etc. The loudest ones get all the attention even if they’re the smallest group. Gives everyone else a black eye when all the ranting is over-the-top.

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  12. I guess I am one of the white males that you so often disparage so maybe I am not smart enough to understand the answers you will give me but I will give it the old college try.
    What is factually incorrect with what he is saying? You can call the ideas he puts forth what ever you want but violence absolutely crosses all social, economic and educational lines. In the moment violence is needed it won’t matter if you are rich or poor, well liked or hated, high school dropout or college professor. If you are not prepared to defend yourself using violence then you are relying on other to use violence on your behalf. (Police, FBI or even the IRS). I am not advocating an harm to come to anyone else, and the idea to do violence because of someone’s color, sexual orientation or religion is completely ridiculous in my opinion. This doesn’t change the fact that others will, and the fact also remains that those people will only respond to violence. Nazis were not going to sit and listen to reasoning to not kill Jews.
    Violence used for self defense is and always will be needed. To think otherwise displays a level of naivety that is dangerous frankly..

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    • Firstly, I don’t “so often disparage” white males. Just ones who have barbaric notions about the supremacy thereof. So if you are one of those white males who believes themselves to be superior to every other race and superior to women, then yes, I probably will disparage you.

      We all realize that violence is a fact of life. Were it not we wouldn’t need defense, now would we? It is an ugly fact of life. Not one I feel we should embrace with such vigor and romanticism, learning to embrace and love the battle axe and proclaiming that “Violence is Golden.” It should be a last resort, not a trophy for masculinity.

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